Home Forums The DJ Booth Identifing verse, chorus… to set cue points for mixing

This topic contains 8 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  deathy 3 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #2309501

    Implanted Soul
    Participant

    Hello,

    I made some research from the internet but i couldnt find the information i needed. I am having trouble about distinguising verses and choruses in psytrance tracks to put cue points. Because psytrance music doesnt have lyrics and they have a lot of 8-bar phrases and short breakdowns between these 8-bar phrases , after intro and before outro of the tracks.

    Actually i wonder:
    1-) What structures(intro, verse, chorus, outro) does a psytrance track generally built in?
    2-) How do you distinguis a verse and a chorus?
    3-) What is the typical order of these structures? [Intro, verse, chorus, outro] or [intro, verse chorus, (one more chorus) verse,(one more verse, outro)] or something like that?
    4-) Can there be more then one verse or chorus in a psytrance track or can a chorus/verse be longer than 8 bars? (can a verse/chorus have 8 bars + short breakdown + 8 bars…?)

    How should a dj set be normally mixed?
    a) Intro –> verse –> chorus of first track and then –> verse –> chorus of the second track then verse –> chorus of the third track…… lastly –> verse –> chorus –> outro of the last track?
    b) Intro –> verse –> chorus of the first track and then –> chorus of the second track then –> chorus of the third track then –> chorus –> outro of the last track
    c) Intro –> verse –> chorus of the first track and then –> verse or chorus of the second track chosen by dj according to his/her ear then –> verse or chorus of the second track chosen by dj according to his/her ear
    d) Intro –> verse –> chorus –> outro of the first track and then –> Intro –> verse –> chorus –> outro of the first track

    Thanks in advance

    #2309521

    DJ Vintage
    Moderator

    Although I can’t comment on the typical song structure of Psytrance tracks, I can comment on how a DJ set should be normally mixed. The answer is … it’s all entirely UP TO YOU!

    I have mixed three long intro’s into one, I have done the craziest stuff. It all depends on you and your creative impulses.

    The need for knowledge is something I understand and can relate to, but DJ-ing does not let itself be captured in such rules. If it did, we could let computers do it.

    You are totally and entirely free to mix in and out of tracks at any given part of the track. The thing to watch for is 1st downbeats and 4- and 8-bar phrases. But with experience comes that you learn to recognize that. I can generally drop into the middle of a song and within a few beats be counting along with both the downbeat and the phrase.

    Again, don’t get to technical or scientific about these things. At this point it’s your creativity that needs to do the work, not the “formulas”.

    #2309551

    Implanted Soul
    Participant

    Yes i totaly agree with you but as a start i am trying to get the basic rules. Creativity will come by experience.
    For example right after a chorus going in with a intro of the new track cause the set lose energy. So it mustnt be done. I think there should be some basic rules lik this.
    I also think that Dj mixing with these rules is the easiest and ordinary djing. The djs uses experience more than these rules are called veteran djs or great djs. Dont you agree wih me?

    #2309571

    bob6397
    Participant

    There is no “Don’t do this” rules – Indeed I don’t think it would be an unfair statement to say that the vast majority of mixing tends to be from the outro of one song into the intro of another.

    Sometimes the Intro of a track actually adds the most energy – if you are playing a set where your audience know their music – when they know what song you have put on and start singing along – that still keeps the energy in the room.

    I wouldn’t go from chorus to chorus for more than 2 or 3 tracks personally, as I think that the only way the chorus can build energy is by having the low energy sections of the track also included – Everything is relative.

    If you just play chorus after chorus, they lose their impact after a while. But, if you play the intros/breaks and the chorus’s then the chorus will have its maximum impact.

    Tracks have sections with less energy in for a reason…

    bob6397

    #2314701

    Implanted Soul
    Participant

    Hi,

    About mixing choruses, i think the same as you do. because it tires the audience. They would want to take a breath. But what do you think about mixing choruses for 2-3 tracks in a row? Does it cause a big problem?
    Another problem is that, I think, right after a chorus i shouldn’t mix a intro because it causes a instant energy loss. So i would let the song to go into its own outro, then I mix in a intro of a new song. But when i do that with tracks with different keys, it doesn’t sound well. Because in psytrance a track generally goes with bass and kick drum in outro and intro. When basses and kick drums of tracks don’t have the same size and the key. Mix doesn’t sound well. How do u generally fix this problem?

    #2314741

    bob6397
    Participant

    Simply? EQ. Or do a cut mix between the tracks rather than fade…

    When mixing, it is part of the skill to decide what to try out next – and the way to work out what works and what doesn’t is simply by practice…

    bob6397

    #2314851

    deathy
    Participant

    My DJ software is set up to specifically break the tracks up into their constituent parts, verse, chorus, bridge, intro, ending, fills, etc.

    What I’ve found in my analysis is that many tracks, even those with vocals, do not follow the traditional song structure, but instead are just a steady build. This is especially common what Trance (and its children). Most of the tracks you’re playing simply don’t have verses or choruses, but merely phrases.

    The way to identify if you have choruses in your track is, when you have it broken up into phrases, listen to each of the phrases. Are there any phrases that either sound exactly the same, or very close? Then it may be a chorus.

    However, it’s not enough to just have choruses, of course… you have to have phrases also that are different from these choruses – your verses, the phrases that go in a different direction for a while, and then when your chorus phrase kicks in, it’s a return to the central idea of the song. If, instead, the same idea is repeated ad nauseum with minor variation, then instead you have what I personally call a “tag track,” short for “instrumental/vocal tag,” a type of phrase that is neither verse or chorus but instead just phrase. Without that “move away from the core idea, and then come back to it” aspect in a track, you do not have a true song structure (verse/chorus/etc.).

    That’s not to say this is a problem… tag songs are very useful as bridges in complex mixes to get you from one place to another. My file browser actually color codes my tracks to help me to identify tag tracks, as well as tracks with no vocals, or tracks where the vocals never (or barely) stop.

    tl;dr – a lot of the tracks you are playing probably don’t have choruses or verses, when working in Trance.

    #2314971

    Implanted Soul
    Participant

    Hi deathy,

    Thank you for explanation about choruses and verses. I appreciated it. This explanation is what i needed. 🙂

    #2315031

    deathy
    Participant

    Ah, good, glad it was helpful to you!

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