Vinyl: Is it the only 'real' way to DJ? Pic: Lasse C
‘Junglist For Life’ disagreed strongly enough with our manifesto post 5 Reasons Why Digital DJing Beats Vinyl, that he or she sent us a reply to it, “5 Reasons Why Vinyl DJing Beats Digital”.
It’s a viewpoint that’s well argued and that shows just how big the divide can be between new “digital” DJs and the old school who were brought up on vinyl and record shops. Here is the reply to us in full:
5 Reasons Why Vinyl Beats Digital DJing
By Junglist For Life
- Sound quality. If people think that music played off of a CD or MP3 sound the same or better than vinyl, I recommend they get their ears checked. Vinyl is fuller, rounder, and has deeper bass. There is no warmth from an MP3. The slightest bit of clipping created by the DJ will cause harsh distortion coming from a digital medium; vinyl is much more forgiving.
- It’s a tangible product. You OWN the music. It isn’t some folder sitting on a hard drive with little thumbnails for all of the cover art, conveniently viewed in iTunes. You have a shelf full of records, every one telling a story about where and how you obtained each title. You can’t hold an MP3 in your hands. You can’t smell an MP3. We aren’t even sure if a CD or a digital file has the ability to last for more than 50 years, yet vinyl has proven itself for double that amount of time.
- Quality versus quantity. As a DJ, walking into a party with 50,000 tunes on a MacBook does NOT make you a better candidate to work a dancefloor. When DJs used to spin vinyl, they would put far more effort into the songs they purchased (as they came at $10 a pop). Because they had fewer tracks in their arsenal, they were able to practise with each one far more, meaning they knew how to navigate through their music much more effectively than someone who randomly plays free MP3s they downloaded off some blog the day of their gig.
- The social aspect of buying records. Back in the day, if you wanted to buy music, you had to physically get off your a$$ and go to the record store to do so. You had to, you know, actually interact with people working there. You were interacting. Making connections. There weren’t any listening stations and the whole concept of “try before you buy” was non-existent. When you bought a record, you were taking a chance. Now in the digital era, people sit on their computers, listening away to everything. Newer artists will just get tossed by the wayside in favour of the status quo. What this breeds is the “Beatport Top 100″ syndrome, where everyone just ends up downloading the same stuff that stagnates on said chart for weeks at a time. And at the end of the day, people wonder why the music played at EVERY party sounds the same. It’s because it IS.
- The music itself used to have VALUE when vinyl was the dominant medium. With the proliferation of digital, music has become more disposable than ever thought possible. The tangible product is no longer there, and with all of the free content popping up online and the lack of quality control, EVERYTHING becomes noise. Everything has a shelf life that now lasts days, not months. Songs are no longer judged by how good they are, but instead how NEW they are. As digital technology continues to push away vinyl, you can count on the headaches endured from the breakneck speed at which we consume music (for free) now to only get worse.
DJ Chackey, spinning with two decks and a mixer. Pic: FUZIKEN
You wouldn’t catch me DEAD spinning a CD or an MP3 at a party. If a friend sends me an unreleased track I love, I have an acetate cut. I’d sooner pay $100 for a dubplate than play a CD that sounds much worse, even after it has worn down.
Vinyl is expensive, but I’ll pay however much is necessary to keep it real.
Thanks, Junglist for Life. So readers, what do you think? Should we be keeping it real with vinyl? Where has the social aspect of buying music gone now that DJs obtain their tunes online? Do all DJs play the same thing since digital came along? We’d love to hear your constructive thoughts.
Now go to:
5 Reasons Why Digital DJing Beats Vinyl
Platinum Notes 3 Review: The MP3 Strikes Back!
7 Easy Ways To Sound Better Than Other DJs
Why Packing a Good Box of Tunes is More Important Than Ever
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I strongly agree with #5, especially in pop music – most music turns over too fast to have any value, people dont care if you play good, high quality music, they want to hear what the radio is playing right now. This leads to the record labels being able to create a star out of nothing, no talent required. A little autotune, a little production magic, and all the girls go crazy.
Well, thats my rant. (BTW, i live in the US, where the music industry is alot less “open” than in europe)
[ link ]I noted on the why digital beats vinyl list that none of it was about sound quality. Well done Junglist making this most important point again here. I agree with your other points and would only add that a key part of a beat matching vinyl performance is the drama from the balancing act of keeping the tracks in time. There is thus a direct relationship between the player and listeners similar to any solo musical performance. The mix is always on a tightrope and even one bar out of time can ruin a two hour set and lose the listeners. When a skilled vinyl mix artist brings in a track you always listen to how “in” it is. Really good artists have such rock solid timing you get more and more confident that they know what they are doing. Slowly you are pulled into their imaginary world and way of telling a sonic story. Music’s power to transport and transcend is given full expression. Filesharing, CDDJs, and compression not to mention even the term “DJ” are the opposite to this.
[ link ]I used to spin vinyl and now im full digital. So i know the value of music and I take care of mp3 collection like it was vinyl. I still put my music into folders then I make creates aka playlist of songs of a certain genre ie 80s New Wave 115 – 125 BPM and so on for the next 126 – 135 BPM.
[ link ]Well I only got into learning to DJ when I was 17, and all the advice I was getting was to get more into CD/digital DJ’ing because thats where it was going. I’m 18 now, got a digital set-up, still havn’t DJ’d but still learning and trying to get there. But I enjoyed reading this, as iIenjoy when talking to older DJ’s about their stories of the older days, when they tell me about all the records they have and about going to the record shop to look round for hours to find hidden gems, I even go in record shops, not often like because i havn’t got turntables, but maybe once a month, and I just like to look through the stack fulls of records and even the little buzz when a great track pops out at you, it does make me wish I got into vinyl a bit, but I am very happy working with digital gear, although I know what you’re saying about the physical aspect of records compared to shit you’ve got at the bottom of iTunes but I do spend a lot of time renaming and organising and getting rid of anything shit from my iTunes too which means i’m really happy to just pick anything out of my playlists to play.
[ link ]Let’s face it: beat matching vinyl at high SPL in front of hundreds or thousands for a couple of hours is difficult. Physically it is hard. Mentally exhausting. Takes skill and confidence in that skill. It takes months, your own 1210s, and plenty new plastic just to get past step 1 (having two tracks in sync for a few seconds). Few people wanna shell out on 1210s anymore. Vinyl shops esp ones with underground dance music are not ten a penny so people away from big cities of course are gonna use the internet. And who has hours on end to practice beat matching these days? Nah, digital has its place. But when superstar world famous techno pioneers come to Beijing and play on CD dx, chat and drink Moet behind the decks, and foist cutlery drawer percussion, pishy tech-house on a paying public, all the time dropping out and slamming in the bottom end and want to pass that off as DJing, I hope people understand why the ready ease of CDs, mp3s, and software control seems so demeaning to the music that I love, that has the power to bring people together. And how just as it takes effort, commitment, and practice to play violin well the same is true of syncing vinyl. That isn’t the end of it though. You need the vinyl. A monkey can learn to sync two records. What are those records? How well do you know them? And how you tell a musical story are the art on top of the science. All of which is a commitment to music and art that digital music files makes too easy if there is such a thing. Nostalgia? Yes. Guilty. But better back then? Yes, in the sense that the demands of vinyl meant only the best mix artists played out in clubs in front of an audience and this terribly divisive DJ/audience, digital/ vinyl BS didn’t stop the people communicating. [Claude Young DJKicks, Dave Tarrida Plays Records.]
[ link ]Lots of good points, UROK. But DJs were guilty of being tedious and not putting effort into it back in the day too. It’s not THAT hard to learn to keep two records in time, after all.
“What are those records? How well do you know them? And how you tell a musical story are the art on top of the science.”
Yes, totally agree. THIS is the art of DJing no matter what your medium, but it’s as hard to do it well with digital as it is with analogue. After all if you have nothing to say, it doesn’t matter how you say it – it is still nothing.
I DJed in a little bar last night (where they couldn’t and wouldn’t have 1210s), arriving with my kit in my backpack after the usual walk along the seafront. It was the most amazing sunset I have seen all year, and as usual I let the mood, the weather and the people dictate the flow of the music.
We ended up coming into the sunset moment with Thomas Newman “Any Other Name”, a track from my dim and distant past that just came to me and I knew I had to play. Luckily it was on an old Cafe Del Mar album that my DJ software found in about 5 seconds for me deep in my iTunes. We came out of it on a brand new song, Malajube’s “Étienne D’août” performed live by Cœur de Pirate which I found on an iTunes Live release – a digital label with digital distribution.
I feel lucky to have the musical freedom to play in places like this, but the first tune I wouldn’t have had with me if I were playing vinyl, the second would probably never have been released in the first place and I certainly wouldn’t have found it even if it had been. Two plusses for digital there.
Thirdly, I wouldn’t have been playing there anyway if it weren’t for compact, easy to set up and dismantle digital gear.
I was a vinyl DJ for 20 years, and I just got bored of it. Digital has given my DJing new purpose. This site is subtitled “How to DJ properly with portable digital DJ gear” because I too believe there’s a right way and a wrong way to go about it, and that new digital DJs today want to learn the right way.
By the way, with my kit (Serato ITCH and VCI-300) you can approximate the “two decks and a mixer” feel really nicely – I don’t sync tunes and ride the pitch and faders like I used to. Much of the music I play doesn’t lend itself to routine beatmatching anyway so I concentrate much more on in-key mixes and programming.
I guess I’m just a bit more optimistic about the future, UROK, but it’s plain to see your opinion is coming from a deep love of music too.
[ link ]Being nostalgic does not mean being pessimistic about the future. But maybe this focus on the means misses the end. When you eat a great meal do you really give a sh*t about what it was cooked in?
Listen to Mike Banks. Like the Detroit techno sound or not all electronic music lovers owe him.
http://current.com/entertainment/music/89891932_detroits-underground-resistance.htm?xid=RSSfeed#92357210
“I am nothing in comparison to the music.”
Keep it Underground. Peace and Love to All Humankind. UROK
[ link ]One shouldn’t underestimate the search for good tracks in the digital age. While I agree that because of the millions of blogs, download portals and Soundcloud users, who think that a cracked version of FL Studio will turn them into the next (insert famous top producer here: ___________), you maybe come across at MORE crap these days*, it makes hunting for the gems more fun and ultimately more rewarding, both for the DJ and the audience.
Sometimes, after I spent hours with listening to every single new release on Beatport, Juno and other download portals, without finding one that is even remotely worth my money, a friend points me to a blog or something like that, were I suddenly find an awesome bootleg or a track from a talented, but unsigned new producer.
Yes, many, especially new DJs just download the Beatport Top 10, but it’s not like back in the Vinyl age there weren’t any DJs who also just bought the best selling club hits of the week.
*I’ve never been a fan of the “everything was better in the past” cliche. Doesn’t matter if we are talking movies, music, books or video games, there has always been lots and lots of unbearable crap around. It’s just that we only remember the good stuff, because the crap isn’t worth it anymore.
[ link ]Just my 2 cents .
First of all, I `ve been started with a classic vinyl setup (pair of 1200 ) and then changed for a VCI 300. Now is a question why ?
Answer : I can play tracks i like , for example so known “white labels” – some really good tracks can not be released because of samples clearance issues , but track is damned good , so what to do ? just upload it somewhere with a free download options.
Believe me , there is a lot of people in this world who once made a “really good tune”.
I can`t afford to record a dub plates for a 35 euro , but I can use it as a digital release.
There is a lot tricks that you can do with a same track in a both decks,but how many of Vinyl junkies buying a copy of a plate which they have ?
P.S digital dj-ing allowed to many people join this closed dj society , but as usual quality of dj-ing became really poor
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[ link ](1.) is a myth. Vinyl is not purer or “closer” to the original music production in any way. In fact, most music is produced digitally noways so all you can do is degrade the signal by putting it on an analog medium (best case scenario: the signal is exactly maintained). The first part of your argument is purely emotional, the second part of your argument (“vinyl is more forgiving,” suggesting headroom is bigger) is plainly wrong.
(2.) is true. But a whole bunch of disadvantages come with your tangible product: it’s heavy, hard to maintain, expensive, very easy to damage during playback, etc. A WAV file on your computer is virtually indestructible (assuming sound backup practices).
(3.) is completely illogical. Just because I have the *option* to store 50,000 files doesn’t mean that I do. Choices are a good thing.
(4.): mostly agree, I kinda miss going to the record shop. however, the digital age also opens up new opportunities. E.g., exchanging music with friends via SoundCloud. However, I’m shocked that you note a lack of listening stations in the analog age. I’ve yet to encounter a record store without them (I’m based in Germany and have bought vinyl for 15+ years).
(5.) is in the eye of the beholder. Digital music still has value to me. And it can be more than the value of the physical medium. And again, there’s no logical argument here, you’re just being emotional. Of course, there’s quality control. Most labels only release stuff when it meets certain standards (for analog *and* digital releases!) More importantly, my ears do most of the quality control LOL. If I don’t like it, I don’t buy it (or, if I made the occasional bad purchase, I simply delete it).
[ link ]I am BRAND new to DJing. Just got my first turntable.
[ link ]I know a bunch of both old-school and digital only DJs, some internationally famous and some that just play at home. I personally have chosen to learn vinyl first, but because of the high cost for just a hobby on that side, am also using a computer for more song selection and timecode vinyl.
That’s just some background. Here’s what I actually wanted to post:
The quality point on vinyl is valid.
I have Prodigy-Fat of the Land on both CD and vinyl and can hear a clear difference in the sound. I’m no huge audiophile or a hardcore dedicated old-school dj, but I can hear the difference. CD doesn’t sound bad, its great, but with CD in one ear and vinyl in the other, I was incredibly surprised by the difference.
Yes, the sound quality is completely different between vinyl and CD (and digital) – which is better/worse is another debate, though
[ link ]I hear point one raised a lot. Mainly by vinyl DJs that don’t gig much. The sad truth is that most club or bar PAs are shit, badly maintained, and have never been touched by a good engineer. You might hear your mythical vinyl warmth at home, but most punters are just getting THUD THUD THUD.
[ link ]I’ve been DJing with vinyl for over a decade and collecting for a good deal longer. I love my vinyl and I love the sound it has *in the right environment*. I still buy vinyl but generally only for things I just can’t get hold of otherwise.
Installed systems that make the most out of vinyl are few and far between – especially at the small venue / bar level. In that circumstance where you might have a bass bin installed under your turntables or find yourself set up on a couple of wobbly tables with beermats wedged under them, you are not getting wonderful warm sound, you are getting thumps, rumble and feedback and it sounds horribly, inexcusably rubbish.
Lets take another example, a bar pays the fat end of a grand a pop for the latest CDJs – they now have “the latest kit” in their eyes. Why are they going to keep spending money on servicing 1210s? Answer is they won’t and so you end up struggling to make it through a set with one deck where the headshell connection keeps dropping out and one where the pitch doesn’t work.
These problems are only going to get more common over time. I’m not denying that an analogue source has much greater sonic potential than a digital one. Thing is that a million factors – many of which are outwith the DJs control – can ruin that potential and so the majority of gigs would actually sound better on digital. The idea that vinyl is universally more forgiving is completely contrary to my experience.
My last point is one of the nature of modern music. It was probably created on a laptop as a wav – why carve all those ones and zeroes into vinyl rather than just play them as they are?
[ link ]The point on sound quality is a difficult one to argue. But heres my 2p
I was at a gig the other day where there were a few vinyl and a few mp3 dj’s. I listened carefully to the sound difference. The mp3′s were slightly more shrill on the top end, the bottom end was fine. Interestingly, the vinyl was also very shrill on the top end.
It wasnt enough to discourage the dancefloor from moving though.
Ultimately, it comes down to the other components in the rig too. We can argue the toss all day but if you get a budget sound system with bad EQing / balance / room dynamics anything you put on it will sound crap.
[ link ]Haha – I should type faster. All my points already made and more concisely!
[ link ]Vinyl is the tangible carrier of music. NOT THE MUSIC ITSELF. It is a thing that helped us people to listen music at a point in history. It made affordable listening music to wider and wider audience some time ago.
[ link ]Now digital makes affordable to dj-ing to more and more people. I don’t see any problem. To depreciate other people’s choice is just pure elitism and absurd.
UROK said: “When a skilled vinyl mix artist brings in a track you always listen to how “in” it is”.
If I find myself doing this then the DJ has already failed. I should be dancing. Or at very least wishing I knew what the tune was.
[ link ]I think there are more well arguments comments against the post on which I agree (the comments), I prefer Tamas argument:
“The important thing here is THE MUSIC, nothing more, nothing less.”
[ link ]so untrue!!!! if even the greatest vinyl players like sven and villalobos are nowadays playing with cds, it has its own reason! digital music all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[ link ]I myself started DJing in the digital age, but that doesn’t mean I’m not old school
why do i say that? because i am an 80′s child, and having said that, i was born on an Era where Analog is the trend.. it just makes sense even a lot of DJ or digital fanatics today will disagree on why Vinyl is better than Digital.. why? well look at it in another perspective, Vinyl is like Film in photography, any film cant be surpassed by any digital camera out there, because digital cameras has limited mega pixels unlike film which can be blown up up to a size of a billboard and don’t have and blurs or pixelation.. I’m going out of topic here now so.. yeah… I’m a digital DJ who still have a place in my heart for Vinyl
[ link ]Khaled said: “Vinyl is like Film in photography, any film cant be surpassed by any digital camera out there, because digital cameras has limited mega pixels unlike film which can be blown up up to a size of a billboard and don’t have and blurs or pixelation..”
If you can find me a piece of dance music made today (or for that matter in the 80s) that is 100% analog in its production – ie is recorded on 100% analog tape, uses 100% analog effects, no samples etc etc – then maybe your arguement would make sense. For THAT piece of music.
Even most early 90s dance music was recorded onto DAT or ADAT or whatever at some point in its production process. Simple fact is pretty much all music since then has been digitised LONG before reaching vinyl or mp3.
Take away the romanticism and replace it with facts and this whole debate just falls apart.
[ link ]I cant debate any longer on this.. as long as i play my sets in a club and the crowd loves it, then thats great for me.. either i use vinyl or a digital controller, if i get 1 or 2 fans out of that set then there’s no debate there, its a matter of how good the DJ and not the equipment… making a debate on Vinyl and Digital is like a Debate on Religion.. it will be neverending and a lot of people will be pissed. LOL
[ link ]“Take away the romanticism and replace it with facts and this whole debate just falls apart.”
) thinking that they can really notice a difference in the quality is, frankly, deluded!
This just says it all. All the points in the article were written by someone who’s so hung-up on how things used to be, he’s blinded himself to how things can be.
Yes, you don’t have anything physical to carry around, but do you honestly thing a roomfull of clubbers actually care about how many boxes you can carry? It a nightclub, not a Mr. Universe contest.
Do you honestly think the clubbers really notice the so-called warmth of vinyl? Most clubs have horribly badly maintained, cheap-ass soundsystems that no sound-engineer has ever been near. Add to that, they’re all drunk and/or high so even if they are paying attention to you (and not the hot blonde that’s caught their eye
Yes, going to record shops was an undoubtedly social experience, but I believe that this is offset by the fact that I don’t have to fight people to get my hands on a track that I’ve heard and love. Yes, there are “top 10″ DJs, but this element seperates the skilled and unskilled meaning that those that work on their programming and do their homework before the gig are rightly regarded as the better DJs.
“The slightest bit of clipping created by the DJ will cause harsh distortion coming from a digital medium; vinyl is much more forgiving.”
Surely it’s better to have this unforgiving nature to, again, seperate the skilled and the unskilled? Those who have done the work and those than need to lear about EQs?
“You wouldn’t catch me DEAD spinning a CD or an MP3 at a party. If a friend sends me an unreleased track I love, I have an acetate cut. I’d sooner pay $100 for a dubplate than play a CD that sounds much worse, even after it has worn down.
Vinyl is expensive, but I’ll pay however much is necessary to keep it real.”
No, you’re paying a lot of money to be a moron! You’re actually REDUCING the audio quality of what was more than likely recorded as digital and spending a hell of a lot to do so. Add to that the simple fact that dubplates do not last. I know a few D&B DJs that have tried to play live, only to discover that the cherished white-label dubplate which was once a jewel in their collection has degraded beyond use as they’ve tried to cue it up, leaving them 30 seconds to find a new track, cue it up and play it before the first record had finished. Trainwrecks, each and every time!
“Quality over Quantity”
If you CAN have both, give me one good reason NOT to!
Mentioning turnover on point 5 is a very subjective point and really depends on the musical scene to which you’re referring. This year’s Creamfields, Armin van Buuren opened his set with a tune that I’d had for over a year (RAM – RAMsterdam (Jorn van Deynhoven Remix)) and I think it’s safe to say he’d probably recieved it as a promo WAY before I had it. Still, the reaction to it was the same. Huge. Does that indicate a turnover of a few weeks? Whether that’s a trance thing or not, I’ll leave to you guys.
“If people think that music played off of a CD or MP3 sound the same or better than vinyl, I recommend they get their ears checked. Vinyl is fuller, rounder, and has deeper bass. There is no warmth from an MP3″
[ link ]Sorry, this is just wrong. Crackling over my music is not warmth, it’s noise. Mp3′s make the noise go away which can only be a good thing and if there isn’t enough bass, guess what. You’ve got a mixer with EQs, turn the bass up!
Everything that everyone is saying is true if you apply a DJ’s logic to it. Someone who loves music, loves playing music that they love and wants it to be heard in the best possible environment. I think everyone is aware of the comparisons that are made between digital and analogue. So there is no argument really from a DJ’s sound quality point of view.
But we are the DJ’s and when we go out we compare everything in a night out’s experience. The music, sound quality, sound system, lighting, atmosphere, DJ techniques and any number of other things that interest us.
How many of the people that have a fixation about vinyl consider the people you are playing to, do they care? I think you will find that they don’t especially in what media it is being played in/on . I quite often ask my girl friend about certain aspects of a night and apart from her generalisation of the music content she doesn’t care ! I have also asked a number of other friends of mine who have no interest other than having a good night out and I have a similar response. All the people I speak to about this are in there 40’s so know what a record is.
It isn’t worth talking to the youth of today as again they don’t care. My 17 year old son pulls up in his car banging out D&B he doesn’t care about the sonic quality that he is getting it is just if the sub bass is kicking hard enough.
I also don’t see now in any environment (in the UK anyway) where the paying public are not accepting that a DJ is not a DJ unless he/she play’s vinyl I go out a lot to different types of clubs and bars. Also that music is being devalued because of it. It is only other DJ’s who have this view.
Also a number of my gig’s I constantly get asked for music that is current and get moaned at for playing things that aren’t. So I have no choice but to download top 10’s otherwise someone else might come along and do it. As has been said I have always done this anyway it was just done at the record shop rather than the download shop. Sometimes playing what people want to hear is part of being a DJ as well as trying to educate. I do different types of gigs though and I need a variaty of music something that is so much easier with digital music.
Things are moving on and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I had a massive record collection that I never thought I would give up and I have. Embrace the change or get left behind
[ link ]This all may depend on what type of DJ you are. I don’t find vinyl sound quality to be overall better. When i even listen to a record today after spinning MP3s for 4 years. The sound of the hiss and pops are really irritating. I dont rip my vinyl because of these pops and hisses. I love that no matter how many times i play a song in a party there is no burn at the beginning. Also some dj set ups constantly have feed back.. Nevermind if someone bumps the booth.
I used to be a big digger and a party/club dj. But with party records being my priority as far as making money goes i spent more of my time finding those records instead of buying the old funk and rock records i wanted. With digital djing, i dont have to waste my time getting these party records.
Also i love that i can change a party goers experience. When a song comes out and i dont like it. I can remix it. You can’t easily do that with vinyl.
[ link ]First off, I give respect to the guys who cling to the old ways for whatever reasons. They are entitled to as much as anyone else is entitled to go digital. My only grudge is when I get the vinyl purists spouting hate on the digital DJs for very asinine reasons. Like somehow we’re not real DJs.
Like Phil and many others, I started on vinyl and still own my 1200s and loads of vinyl. Digital is a godsend to me and how it’s made my life easier.
I have my own feelings on these reasons, and I’ll share. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows I give no hate to the vinyl purists…
“SOUND QUALITY”
I agree with malzfreund in that practically all music now is recorded digitally to begin with, and then pressed to vinyl. There really aren’t any studios now that do it all analog. I will agree that the 100% analog stuff (recording, processing, and pressing) does sound warmer than MP3s, but the last bunch of records I’ve bought I have yet to hear any sound difference versus high quality MP3s.
“Get your ears checked” is a lame excuse. If you can’t hear the difference between a 96 kbps MP3 and a 320 kbps MP3, then you need to get it checked, but any other instance is just a lame excuse. PLUS…I have yet to see any NORMAL CLUBGOER make an issue. I’ll see a few audiophiles in the corner scoff at the sound, but in all my years of DJing, I have yet to find a perfectly sounding venue to play. Even the big expensive venues you still hear more bass than anything, and it’s so loud that clarity becomes nonexistent. Only way you will get the clarity is to stand in a certain place, and even turn the volume down a bit to make it clear. Unfortunately you also have to ask the crowd to be quiet.
“IT’S A TANGIBLE PRODUCT”
While I agree you can’t “smell” an MP3, most of the story and connection I have with favored tracks are more on where I heard it and how it worked out when I played it. I’ll hear some tunes I hold dear to me (vinyl or mp3) and remember the chills of excitement I felt as I heard it. As far as I’m concerned, I own the MP3s I bought just as much as I owned the vinyls I bought in the past…and their longevity is more based on how well people know and remember the tune, and how well I take care of my files. You can ruin a file just as easily as you can ruin a vinyl.
“QUALITY VS QUANTITY”
This debate to me isn’t as much the fault of producers as it is of DJs. I hear so many complaints about how long it takes one to find a “good track” over the tons of “bad tracks” sitting in any MP3 store. This to me is no different than when I’d spend hours at Gramaphone trying to find records worth spending $10 on versus those that were not. Unfortunately, a lot of good music was passed up because I felt $10 for one track was a waste, and would favor an EP with 2 good tracks and 2 mediocre tracks. I agree when it’s $10 a pop you have to be more selective.
Pressing vinyl costs money, so unless you have the money to get pressings and even give some promos, chances are you won’t get anywhere. Digital has made it so the bedroom producer finally can get a real shot without going through the red tape of the music industry. Can you imagine if Chicago house pioneers could have put out music without Larry Sherman and Rocky Jones? Or if Jason Nevins had put his bootleg remix of “It’s Like That” online over selling it for a mere $2000?
I know if I was a working DJ, I’d only be buying music that makes me money, which means many underground and up-and-coming artists would be chucked aside for the more known popular artists. That’s the reality…then people will bitch and complain how the music scene is all poppy and no one new and innovative can get in. Especially now in the “me me me me” and “now now now now” mentality of the clubs and bars, a DJ can’t afford to pop $10 on that cool tune that a manager will tell him to take off the decks when the crowd clears the floor. He’ll be stuck only spending his money on Lady Gaga and Katy Perry. Thus the underground pays a bigger price.
“THE SOCIAL ASPECT”
Maybe I just wasn’t a good networker back then, but I hated at times going to get new music. In Chicago the new shipments landed on Wednesday or Thursday, and would be on the shelves Thursday night. At that point, DJs jammed themselves into Gramaphone and Hot Jams to get the newest and especially limited release stuff. You could see 10 copies of some exclusive track come out, and only 2 make it to the shelf because the other 8 were already bought by the staff. Some would even then eBay these records immediately.
I never made big pals with people in the stores, nor did it land me gigs or connections. I used to enjoy digging for old school records until stores started tagging them with a $20 and up price tag per used record. I’d rather then trade tracks with friends who digitized them at that point.
And I dunno what stores you’ve been to, but I have yet to find a store that doesn’t allow listening. I would never buy a record unless I heard it. $10 is too much money to play chance on.
The social aspect still exists, but the problem is that the promoters and the clubs take cheap labor over quality professionals. I know plenty of older guys who keep up with new music and innovation, but they’re stuck in their bedrooms because the clubs and promoters want the $50 a night flunky who will play the Billboard Top 100 and combine it with the Beatport Top 100. They want guys who won’t think and just “play the hits”. We’re all in communication, but in many ways you have to sell out in order to get the gigs now…and we’re not willing.
“THE MUSIC ITSELF USED TO HAVE VALUE”
It still has value. The problem is that the scene isn’t one run by local party people wanting to build a cool event. It’s run by corporates who want money. This is why every club went from the big room with a dance floor and fresh music to pop music on a small floor with booths and tables filling up as much space as possible. The clubs don’t want ravers, party people, and even the ones who like jungle. They want suburban Caucasian spoiled rich kids to come and pop $300 on a bottle of vodka. Those people don’t want to hear unknown stuff. Hot girls dressed like hookers want to do their stripper dances to pop music, and the DJ now is forced to keep it all “mainstream” or look for a new job. This is even why so many DJs remix pop tunes into more palatable sounds. If you have to play Ke$ha, then you might as well play a version that sounds better than the original.
——————————————–
We can go back and forth on this, but I’ve seen the decline of it all even when digital didn’t exist. I watched the rave scene go from interesting/innovative music lovers to kids who hated dressing up and wanted loads of drugs combined with whatever DJs would come out and play for free. I watched the club scene go from venues of dancing and true DJ talent to shrines of self-gratuity where people pretend to be high rollers and celebrities.
You could send out some magical pulse that destroys the computers and shatters the timecode and shorts the midi controls, but things won’t change. Not as long as the DJ has less control in the booth than he used to. I’m not talking about headliners, but the local residents. They used to be calling the shots and would make a nice blend of mainstream and underground, but now they’re forced to be human jukeboxes because keeping hot girls in the club is more important than having a rep as the best party in town.
Don’t blame digital…blame the scene and where it went. If DJs had more control the politics were taken out, then all at once the music would improve and the scene would be something way better than “hot chicks with douchebags”.
[ link ]the voice of wisdom… particularly that last part about how crap the club scene has become & maybe how we’ve let club owners & wanky producers call the shots.
[ link ]i think the arguement about hits an’ all is a bit dated. my experience is that very few people (partygoers) have time to research what’s good, and when i play broken beat/ jazzy & deep house in low-key gigs i nearly always get a great response.
my answer, i’m working on creating a jazzy deep house experience in são paulo, brazil, so i don’t have to play what the boss orders.
i also feel that people are inspired by the dj culture, so i decided to produce events tailored to my style, rather than sit in my room complaining about the politics.
who knows, might even get the brainless club bosses to re-think the top 100!?
Awesome topic .. Everything I want to say has already been covered .. For me, digital DJing has been my ‘foot-up’. Had it not been for my ability to rip my CDs and get mixing for free, I doubt I’d ever have gotten into DJing. Deck, Mixer + the vinyl + the vinyl + the vinyl £££. I try to use this control surface as though they are vinyl decks insofar as is reasonable possible which means not using ‘sync’ at all. I have played vinyl once or twice. Digital looping and effects make creating remixes on the fly much easier than juggling plastic and getting repetitive strain injuries.
I understand the pleas from both sides of the fence. I used to love Citizen’s Band Radio a lot in my younger life, and Yahoo Chat and MSN Live kinda digitised the original analogue communication thingy. I’ve had to move with the times, although I’m now a licensed radio ham and can jump between the digital and analogue world of communication at will or combine the two if I so choose
[ link ]DJam so true you have hit the nail on the head.
[ link ]The job has been totally devalued over the last few years.
Also this vinyl v digital is just a rehash of the old cd v vinyl which we had 10 years ago whch was preceeded by the musicians union going on strike years back protesting about the use of electronic instrument and synths, anyone old enough to remember those keep music real stickers?
[ link ]Personally I dont give a rats arse what you use to dj with,what I do care about is the quality of the DJ there are some real idiots getting away with it at the moment and devaluing the job making it harder to make a decent living.
The DJS are not to blame its the idiots employing them.
Its a lack of understanding on the part of area managers some managers and corperate entertainment agencys that do not care about quality control.
Over here there is one culprit who send out what is laughingly called a gig list djs then respond and it is a lottery who gets the gig.
So for example 2 gigs up for grabs with very vauge details,2 dj apply for both of these gigs in the hope of getting one of them.
DJ number one is an experienced pro DJ who has done clubs and bars for years,DJ two is a bedroom dj just starting out trying to earn abit of cash.
Unbeknown to these djs gig 1 is a tiny local bar, gig 2 is a large club,due to lack of quality control and the lottery style of getting a booking with this agent experienced Dj can end up doing the tiny bar and bedroom DJ ends up out of his depth in large club.
And why is it that my fuel bills and all other buisness related expenses keep rising year after year whilst the DJ fees are going down and down to a level they were 10 years or more ago
Its all rubber ducked!
I agree with Justyn.
Just some thoughts on Vinyl… Honestly, i think this debate is firing up now because a lot of the purist on turntables are trying to keep it alive, but its inevitable that turntables and Vynils are really dying or getting phased out today because of technology (which is suprisingly getting smart faster now).
[ link ]Flicking through racks of music, and listening on rubbish headphones, used to the best waste of hours ever – even if you decided everything you heard wasn’t up to your standard to be included in the gig box.
My old record store had a bar next to it, and many a good conversation debating the current shipment was forged on the way through a few pints of whatever.
The social aspect of records is charming, but the technical advantages of digital are many.
I use both, and no-one dancing has ever complained about the sound difference.
I have fun, they have fun – everyone’s a winner!
Now where’s that cute girl who bought me a drink gone??
[ link ]Excellent – and passionately written – article. However, after DJing since I was 17 in 1989, and taking a break for three or four years – it’s the digital scene that reignited my interest. Even though I love vinyl – and I really do – the choice of tunes, the chance to manipulate the tracks and the lack of spce in my pokey flat means I’m now eyeing up VCis and S4s like I did with Technics when I was 19. I loved record shops, but what I hated were the cliques and the feeling you were buying something you didn’t like just because the fatty behind the counter in the Strictly Rhythm T-shirt told you it “phat, mate” I’ll keep about two boxes of vinyl (some of them my own tedious deep house releases) and then the really special singles. All the rest can go.
Great site, by the way, Phil – good, respectful posters too.
[ link ]Great article. The only problem is I could never go back to vinyl fully now, well I could but I would be using Traktor scratch & vinyl to control Traktor. Well this is my plan anyway. buy the vinyl rip. convert it at the highest possible quality & then control digitally. But your right, nothing beats the feel of vinyl.
[ link ]@D-Jam “I watched the rave scene go from interesting/innovative music lovers to kids who hated dressing up and wanted loads of drugs combined with whatever DJs would come out and play for free. I watched the club scene go from venues of dancing and true DJ talent to shrines of self-gratuity where people pretend to be high rollers and celebrities.”
This has always been true, naff DJs pretending to mix so they brag to everyone they’re a “DJ” to get chicks. These clowns will always be around taking up places which many bedroom DJs would knife their gran to get.
I’m guessing your stateside so I’ve no real idea what the scene is like but in the UK/Europe it is very much still innovative/interesting and rammed full of music lovers dressed ridiculously, the residents still bust a gut to stand out and find/play the best tunes. If things have moved away from this mentality on your side then that is a shame, and hope this coporate invasion doesn’t ruined over raving experiences.
“Don’t blame digital…blame the scene and where it went.”
Over here at least the scene is going strong, promoters are working harder than ever and residents (ones I know anyway) are as passionate as they were when they first had a pop at this game.
Finally, I agree with most of your counter arguments I suspect some of the vinyl purists aren’t feeling enough love from the dancefloor anymore even though they continue to invest in the acetate days. They may once have been revered for their DJing medium, but for most part, way back in the early days and into the future, most ravers didn’t/don’t care how you play as long as the tunes are banging.
[ link ]@Richie:
I was blessed to get a shot to play in Bratislava, Slovakia…and I’ll always agree Europe will blow the US away in terms of the club scene, and I still tell many DJs/producers who want to “make it” to move to Europe and start there.
Pretty much all the DJs I saw were using Virtual DJ with no controllers. One guy used Traktor Scratch Pro. In the end, we all had a blast and they actually found Chicago-style mixing as fascinating.
[ link ]“The sound of the hiss and pops are really irritating.”
I’m not the only one then!
[ link ]Excellent arguments on both sides, I will add this however:
For me, its not so much the medium itself, rather I resent digital DJs who use the technology to hide the fact they have little skill and no talent. I see a lot of this, and it really gets me agitated.
I’m a vinyl DJ, primarily because I prefer the tactile approach of vinyl as compared to a controller, and yes I do prefer the sound. However, I do fully intend to go Serato/Tractor one day, and combine my love of music & the tricks & skills I learned using vinyl with the vast potential of digital: loops, remixes, FX, quick mixes etc. (with high quality MP3s)
Personally I feel vinyl really has taught me to be a better DJ, why? Here’s why:
I MUST know my tunes, I must know them inside out: How they build, break, their tempo, their ‘colour’ & feel, what they blend well with etc etc. I appreciate this is not exclusive to vinyl DJs, (I really do), but if you play vinyl, you have to do this, you have no option. Digital allows people to get away with not knowing their tunes, in fact the ease with which you can access new music (and the ever present autocue) seems to discourage this important element of DJing.
I can beatmatch, its not the be all and end all, but its an important skill. Further because of this I know how songs are put together; I know about phrases, eights, sixteenths etc etc. I know just from listening to a record how once, how, more or less, it should be melted into another one. How do I know this? Because I’ve spent months and months studying my music and learning to understand it. Again, this is not exclusive to vinyl DJs, but I see a hell of a lot of digital DJs who don’t even know what a phrase is, and they just plonk their mixes in, and then wonder why it doesn’t sound so good.
That for me are the two major pluses for vinyl: You must know your tunes, and you must understand the structure of music itself.
Basically digital has allowed pretenders & fakers to pass themselves off as ‘proper DJs’. I appreciate we have always had people like this, but this new technology has allowed many more people to moonlight as credible musicians, when they’re not. They don’t love the music. They don’t put the time in, They don’t appreciate how a song is put together. They do not appreciate the beauty of music itself. All they want is girls and cash. And that my friends is not what the ‘art’ of DJing & the love of music is supposed to be about.
[ link ]Sorry, further one other thing.
Vinyl itself, the cost of it supported an industry.
Digital, and download culture is helping to destroy the underground, (controversial statement I appreciate). Fair enough, the majors needed taking out, but even the small independent record labels are folding. Why?
Because digital does not support them, they cannot earn a living off it. A world without the small hardworking record label does mean a world with less underground parties, and it does mean a world with less quality control. It means more power to beatport and ultimately stagnation, as no one is there to push the new music in the way an organisation like a record label can
And then people wonder why their local electronic scene is dying?
Read this interview with Nick Hoppner, honcho from Germany’s Ostgut Ton, he outlines exactly the same thing:
http://www.residentadvisor.net/news.aspx?id=12281
Fracturing and splintering is good in art, but too much and you just get atomised individuals playing only to themselves.
[ link ]@MahatmaCoat
You’ve totally misquoted what Hoppner says in that interview. He says vinyl sales are down, and that digital isn’t making up the shortfall. He at NO POINT blames digital for the decline in sales.
The decline in sales is for a multitude of issues, but it started in electronic dance music long before downloads became popular. The main reason? We need to stop kidding ourselves – ‘underground dance music’ is a 25 year old style. It will never be as popular as it was at its peak in the early 90s. It’s like complaining that the sales of punk records are not as strong as in 1979, and then blaming that on iPod owners.
Plus I doubt he’s that anti digital. Otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to buy ‘Funf’on Beatport yesterday.
[ link ]I’m too busy to take sides on this debate today, good points on both sides here, but “It’s like complaining that the sales of punk records are not as strong as in 1979, and then blaming that on iPod owners.” did make me smile
[ link ]I didn’t quote Hoppner, but I will now, with the question, just so we all get the context:
“Q. A lot of clubs and labels have been suffering in the past few years, due partly to the economy and the state of the vinyl market. Have Berghain and Ostgut Ton felt any effects from this at all?
A. I’m not the right person to talk about the economics behind the club, but just from what I’m feeling I don’t think so to be honest. The place is full most of the time, but I’m not sure… Speaking for the label, I can say that vinyl sales for us are still a bit higher than for other labels I’m aware of, but it’s constantly going down. It’s not getting better. It’s slowly but surely getting worst, and the digital doesn’t really make up for it. We’re not losing money, but we’re not making a lot of money either.”
So vinyl sales are down, and digital doesn’t make up for it.
I guess we can interpret that statement in different ways, but I see that he’s making the point that the cheapness of the digital format means revenues are down. Why would digital make up for vinyl revenue streams when it costs under a dollar/euro/pound to download one track? Even with the higher production costs of vinyl taken into consideration.
Perhaps we have to distinguish between ‘sales’, and ‘revenue’ here.
What I’m saying is that digital is far cheaper, and that there’s going to be a knock on effect from that. So whilst I agree sales are down, revenue takes yet a further hit from the fact that what is being sold, is being sold at much cheaper prices.
The majors can handle it, they have Pepsi & Smirnoff to help them out. Berghain & Ostgut for eg. have only music lovers and the underground to rely on, so I do think its valid to discuss falling revenue streams in relation to the digital debate.
As for sales specifically being down across the industry, not just EDM, I wouldn’t blame the ipod or the fact that Acid House is 25 years old, but I would blame file sharing.
Further I don’t think Hoppner is anti digital, and I didn’t intend to present him as explicitly such. I’m just saying we have consider digital & its effects on revenue & underground scenes here, and I think this interview with Hoppner outlines this financial element quite well.
I would also say that my statement that ‘digital is destroying the underground’ is inflamatory however, and I retract and apologise for that, as it obviously frames this discussion in the wrong way.
Anyway, peace, and its a great debate.
[ link ]I like #4 & 5. The harsh reality is that technology moves on and we should too. Hug technology and master it because there are some pretty amazing things one can do. DJ’s who argue the vinyl side of DJ need to sometimes look down at the mixer they’re using and notice the effects that the mixer has. No using them if you’re a vinyl purist.
[ link ]Here are my thoughts.
[ link ]Ease does not equal greatness! Those that present the ease of digital as a reason for use is a bit of a cop out! Nothing worth anything is easy! The digital signal is just a clone of an analog signal, hence it is a lesser version of the parent source.
This is not to say that everyone is entitled to perform on whatever media they choose! If one decides to show up to a gun fight with a water pistol then that is that persons choice!
Interesting argument.
a)The fact of the matter is that there just arent that many record stores around anymore unless you are in a big enough city , like NYC. Austin is HUGE for music, but they dont have that many underground record stores with exhaustive dance music collections.
b)It cost way more money back then to be a DJ and I wouldn’t be able to do it if digital didn’t come around. I don’t think it took ten years or so for DJ’s to become great becuase of the skills..I think it took awhile to get the equipmnent, the storage and the transportation ( at least a $1000 for the turntables, $5 – $10 an album and for an hours set you need at least 10 records, a case for your turntables, a mixer, etc).
c) Because of digital, you can reach your goals much faster, practice with more flexibility(you can practice in the park, or in a coffee shop)..you can get to know way more music faster now with ipods, internet radio, podcasts, etc. Where before it took 10 years to build a career, now it may take only 3 – 5 years.
d) beatmatching isn’t everything. You still have to have great taste, love music, make people dance and be relatively social.(unless you are a producer and have ridiculous tracks. Just because you spin vinyl doesn’t make you a great dj.
I think its a new time and because of it we should adapt.
[ link ]@Mahatmacoat Of course digital is cheaper. It has none of the manufacturing or distribution costs that vinyl has. I know people that have gone bust because they insisted on releasing vinyl, for purely romantic ‘I am underground’ reasons. Have you ever put a vinyl record out? Dealt with distributors? It’s an enthusiasm sapping money trap.
Also – and this is a controversial opinion, perhaps – I believe filesharing is a symptom of the decline of popular music rather than a cause. Major labels have been devaluing music for decades, using it to sell a brand rather than nurture talent. Even the trendy ‘underground’ clubs and labels like Berghain/Ostgut seem far too focussed on fashion and style. I’m old skool I’ll admit, but I remember a time when techno was about more than haircuts and pretending to be into dubstep.
End result: most people just don’t care about music as much as thy once did, its another disposable commodity. Sadly. When it’s used to sell fast food or a lifestyle then asking them to pay a premium for it is a piss take. Things have changed, we need to stop living in the past. When I got into this music 20 years ago it was about future facing – we embraced any new technology we could find, not dwelling in nostalgia. I used to dream about the stuff I do now with digital DJing. Welcome to the future.
@Jay “The digital signal is just a clone of an analog signal, hence it is a lesser version of the parent source.”
There’s so much wrong with that statement it makes my brain hurt. If anything, the complete opposite is true. Read my post above about digital, or learn just a little about production and mastering processes, and you’ll soon see that everything is pretty much digital from stage one, especially if you’re dealing with EDM.
[ link ]#1 & #2 are pure hating BS.
#3 is halfway reasonable.
#4 is reasonably right.
#5 is a proof of not understanding new media and a story of a old nostalgic person.
These would be my 5 tough-luck-cents. Now get off a great digital DJing blog, go hug a vinyl crate.
[ link ](sorry, havn’t had time to read the comments but I will)
I think that the problem here is that 99 out of 100 digital DJs (whom have never played for real) suck. I go out week after week to hear pig vomit, trainwrecks, poor programming, awful records, sets that make no sense, and punks who have no clue what so ever about how to work a crowd.
Just a simple question for the arrogant types that refuse to accept reality.. If digital were truly the equal of vinyl, why doesn’t scratching sound right on digital? If some smart ass says it sounds fine, or that it’s the tech and it will catch up, just shut up now. Waiting for technology to catch up is something that cripples art. Another question, why is it that if the difference between an MP3 and CD vs vinyl are clearly evident if you listened to the same track in each format? Why is it that the digital compression that is used is a good thing for sound quality? When did taking some information away to compress the file and make it easier to carry become more important than the sound?
Since when did the DJ become a statue standing behind a laptop? At least with control vinyl there is some performance but most of the time I see some loser never take his eyes off the laptop screen to look out over the crowd that he was embarrassing himself in front of.
In order to cheat properly, you need to know the rules of the game. If you can’t mix on vinyl, you shouldn’t be allowed to call yourself a professional. If you have to think about the speed of the next track and not the effect of the next track, go practice some more, you suck. If you use sync or auto-tune, please quit, you are just hurting things.
These days it’s hard to play vinyl. Not much comes out on vinyl, it’s pricey, it’s heavy and it’s tough to know what to expect equipment wise when you go into a gig. It’s sad that digital is more common now, it’s sad that people will gladly drink the cool aid and try to say that a CD sounds good when compared to vinyl. Dynamics are different, compression different, that is sounds different. The MP3/WAV DJs are at least a bit better sound wise, but most lack the skills to work a room and have no understanding of the performance aspects of things.
[ link ]This is one of those never ending arguments, but hopefully some of these new jack digital people will begin to take more care with the craft because of it. Yes I do still play vinyl sometimes, but I use Traktor with control vinyl as my main deal now, just because I can’t get what I need on vinyl. The day a digital file sounds the same as vinyl when scratched is the day that digital might catch up, but it hasn’t yet and your fooling yourself if you think it has.
1940′s – the electric guitar is not an instrument
1970′s – disco is not music
1980′s – synthesizers are not real instruments
1980′s – ugly musicians are no longer able to be famous
1990′s – using samples is not making real music
1990′s – everyone is a dj
2000′s – everyone is making music
2010′s – everyone has an independant label
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However readers seeking a education on a subject to decide their own standpoint should also be wary that dj’s also lack perspective. if you’ve produced or worked worked in production/broadcast studios, technician for recorded orchestra, worked for a sound company doing consulting or installations, you will generally disagree with all points…
1) Sound Quality
My ears are fine thank you. Dont forget that any sound system needs to be tuned one way or the other. they are different formats and a vinyl dj will sound bad following the same tuning for cdjs. That doesnt make it bad. Secondly yes its warmer, but that doesnt make it a more accurate reproduction. You _can_ get warmer and more accurate reproduction out of digital with the right knowledge and technique. Quite frankly vinyl sounds muddy and lacklustre these days to me.
2) Its tangible
Nice point, I like it. However I dont really fondly remember having rooms for vinyl, carrying 3 boxes with me to a piddly gig, having my cart break down, having drinks poured over them OR having to buy 3 copies because its an absolutely slamming track
3) Red herring. You start a good point, then go on to slam djs with poor taste in downloading free, poor quality encoded music. Try playing an 8 hour gig on 2 boxes of records and feel like you didnt have enough options through the night. Try playing a gig where the promoter was not transparent with you and you had a nearly unhappy crowd expecting something totally than what you thought you were there to do. Hey, its about the getting off crowd aint it?
4) Nice, but are we slamming the internet in totality now because its all relative. New technology in social media is making buying music more interactive, more social and more informative. I now buy music using the collective knowledge of ALL of my heroes through facebook and soundcloud. Wouldnt have gotten that at my local shop any day of the century…
5) See the litany of recorded history. Digital medium is not at fault for the way the music industry has already been going. Learn the history of electronic music and read about a bunch of dudes starting a pressing factory in downtown Detroit and flooding the market with vinyl. How did you think the bigwigs would react to that? Cause and effect. Look at how Drum & Bass (since were talking to Junglist at Heart) has continued into so many subgenres. You dont get this snowball effect when an industry is limited to only certain participants. You have to thank electronic mediums for being responsible for being a major player in how music has evolved in the last decade.
My own counter points which probably have been posted 100 times already:
1) Electronic music is… well, erm, electronic. Why are we arguing about sound quality on something that was a digital source? I believe you can only have conviction if you actually followed the production process in analog the whole way through.
2) Let’s not lump 44.1khz sampled CD medium with “digital”. There are lots of famous last words. 640k base memory is enough for computers. 40mb hard drive is ALL anyone could ever need… If you’ve studied the actual mechanics of digital you’ll know that 44.1khz was an approximation at the time and has to do with packaging alone. Look at VHS vs Beta, Betamax is superiour quality… and lost. Anyhow, people in classical music will know that you need 192khz sampling to maintain the dynamics without compressing the crap out of the music. Also probably one of the things that started the compression wars.
3) Have ANY label owner tell you the truth that vinyl was about consistent releases. Of a 4 track EP, no more than 2 can be winners. It’s an expensive medium and to make your profits you need to ride out the hits across multiple releases to pay your overheads. Should the consumer really have to bear that in this day and age? I dont know how many double or triple pack vinyls I have for the sake of ONE floor slammer that I HAVE TO HAVE. Gone are those days for sure.
4) Vinyl stopped evolving it’s process since the 70′s. The materials and the pressing methods were pretty much the same since then except for computer aided tooling of the mechanics. Digital on the other hand will continue getting better for decades and decades to come. Basically digital NOW is vinyl in the 1910-1940s when innovation was nonstop and we went from wax logs to PVC discs.
I am not partial to CDJs or CDs. I roll up with my traktor and timecode vinyl and play music with the old touch, and I scratch and transform with house and dnb. Am I no longer a DJ despite I can still use the timecode imperfections of vinyl control to beatmatch 4 decks at once?
I LIKE the fact that I can anally organize my music in 3 layers of subfolders with custom genre tags that match the mood. It allows me to buy music from 5 genres at once and build a collection of music that I LOVE to bits. I couldnt do that with vinyl. Thus I can nearly match my music buying with the amount of output that’s going on in the biz.
I DONT agree with the compression wars. This is an arbitrary issue to mass marketing and mass packaging a product to sell globally and sound good on a transistor radio to your cheap iphone DSP to your super expensive studio monitors. Compression as I said is a necessary evil when you have low sample rates and want to appeal to mass market. IT’s sucked the dynamism out of Classical, Jazz, alot of Folk and even heavy metal. This is acutally going away with higher sample rates, we just need standardized packaging to allow the consumer to have access to this. With rising internet speeds and cloud computing, it will only be a few years from now that it takes an equal amount of time to download 5 minutes in 500mb 200kbps-192khz file, as 5 minutes in 12mb MP3-320kbps-44.1khz
My humble opinion…
[ link ]Hi Paz: My favourite bit of your mammoth reply there is when you say that digital now is as vinyl was in the 1910s – I’ve never thought of it that way before and of course, it’s true.
The next 100 years are going to be very exciting for music, but I doubt vinyl will play a big part in it.
[ link ]Remember: Just because you own the vinyl doesn’t mean you own the music. The music is someone else’s property and the vinyl medium is the method of transmission. In that aspect mp3′s are closer to reality than that of vinyl – digital being more of an esoteric medium in that you can’t touch it, feel it or smell it..
Also, a hot girl isn’t going to come on to you at a club because you are spinning vinyl!!! People aren’t going to dance more when they check out your crates!!
Unless you are playing at some of the best clubs, the sound quality will be at BEST average, and the listener isn’t going to be like the guitar player Eric Johnson who claimed to be able to hear the difference between two different batteries in his guitar pedal!!! He/she wants to slam down drinks, get laid, dance his/her ass off and/or hear BASS (and not necessarily in that order)!! The person who cares about decibels, etc. is the sound guy or is probably not even there!!!
As a side note, I think its interesting that when vinyl was popular, because of the nature of the club scene DJ’s spun longer ( some of them 8 – 10 hour sets). Nowadays because of mp3′s and disc storage, its so easy to carry around 8 hours of music, but the average DJ only gets 90min to 2 hours to spin! In some places only 45 minutes1
[ link ]1. Sound quality
If people are too picky about sound quality, maybe something is wrong with the music. I’m not saying quality doesn’t matter…I know that opinions differ, and if somebody has dedicated his life to sound quality, he might laugh at this, because he obviously sees that from different angle. But if I hear a tune I really like, I really don’t care whether it’s mp3 or vinyl or wav or ogg vorbis or flac or…you name it:) It’s music I like. And if that *feeling* is lost, I think there is not much left then.
2. It’s a tangible product
Yes, you can take vinyl in your hand but…I see it also as an obstacle to finer selection. One of the biggest advantages (at least for me) of digital is ability to *buy* single track. I was always frustrated by expensive cds, and more often than not, I didn’t like everything that was in a package.
Digital file for sure has the ability to last
It’s not about the file, it’s about the medium. Hard drives and recorded CD-Rs probably won’t last that long. Another real possibility is that file *formats* in use might change with time. Maybe FLAC or something like that might prevail in the future. Still, as long as converting between digital formats is not a problem it’s really not something to worry about. The only dilemma I have right now is “to buy wavs or not to buy them…” 
And also, I admit, I am a little bit worried because mp3s I buy don’t have a resale value.
Records and cds do. Anyway, I think people should be able to sell mp3s they have paid for.
Btw, there is an interesting theory which says that accumulating material stuff takes away your energy. Maybe there’s something about it, you have piles of records and cds, and you feel somehow…flat and empty?:)
3. Quality versus quantity
I agree, quality is much more important. But you shouldn’t blame technology for lack of quality, you should blame djs who are obviously not trying hard enough to deliver quality.
4. The social aspect of buying records
I don’t know about that. It’s not hard to imagine somebody going into a record shop and not interacting with anybody except with the records
5. The music itself used to have VALUE when vinyl was the dominant medium
I think the main problem here is consumerism and mass production, not digital technology. And consumerism and mass production have been here for quite long time. I think djs are those who should stand against this, no matter what technology they use. And I’ve heard many djs saying “oh, it’s old…you won’t hear me playing *that*”.
Still, there is something about your argument, because when you get something too easily, you don’t appreciate it very much.
But the last thing is something i don’t agree at all. You said, “You wouldn’t catch me DEAD spinning a CD or an MP3 at a party”…I don’t understand why there’s so much hate between “old” and “new”. I think djs should stand together connected by love for music, and learn from each other. They should put more energy in sharing knowledge and information. They should put more energy in finding good music in all that junk, presenting it, educating people about different styles either by playing it, writing about it or talking about it instead of laughing at each other about equipment they use.
And I think they should put more energy in fighting against pressure commercial “culture” is putting on them, by playing what they feel is good, and not what somebody says they have to play. (I know, this is damn hard sometimes.) I was listening to a dj who refused to play anything older than 3 weeks because it’s *old* and he has to move on. Yes, move on…I just don’t know in what direction. Nothing fresh or interesting there, and he probably knows that, but he has to move on….Brave new world.
Anyway, my point is – being obsessed with digital technology while forgetting about music and knowledge is just as wrong as being obsessed with vinyl and think that digital is something you should laugh at.
[ link ]Excellent reasons for staying with vinyl. I’ve found that the industry is far more selective in what it presses to disc than what it releases digitally (for obvious cost reasons), and this helps weed through the river of crap music that the digital revolution has brought on.
But really, the number one reason for sticking with vinyl is that it’s really f-ing boring watching some dude play with his laptop. Digital DJ-ing requires you to have your eyes on the screen much more than on the crowd. Two 1200′s and a box full of wax puts anyone more in touch with the dancefloor.
[ link ]100% agreed. I heard in a song once “I like my music physical, ‘cuz mp3 is invisible.”
[ link ]This response is coming from someone who moved from vinyl to digital.
1) Sound Quality. I think a lot of people say this without really testing it (or even looking it up). I’ve played a record that I have an MP3 of as well as a vinyl of and they sound damn near the same. Oh and http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-gaming/article/2008-07/are-records-really-better
2)It’s a tangible product. First off, I own my mp3s too. Second, who cares? I can back up my mp3s and not have to worry about them warping over time or making sure they’re clean before I play the track.
3)Quality versus quantity. I don’t have 50,000 tracks… I only buy songs that I love and I practice them all the time. Just because you have more access to more music doesn’t mean you have EVERY song.
4) The social aspect of buying records. You’re right, you’re not going to make any connections downloading music from beatport but I’ll take access over talking to the record store owner (I’ll make my connections at the parties and clubs). “try before you buy” is a plus, not a minus. I like knowing what I’m spending $10 on (oh wait I’m only spending between $1.49 and $2.49 for a song I know I like)
5) The music itself used to have VALUE when vinyl was the dominant medium. Key words, USED TO. Sorry buddy, but times are changing. You say there is a lack of quality control? I think you’re more upset that the barrier to entry is a lot lower than it used to be. The quality of music has gone up, there are just a lot more people making music now so there is also a lot of $h!t too. I don’t mind going through 50, 100, 500 songs for find one good track, its worth it because thats the one that gets buried under all the chart toppers that everyone buys.
In response to “Beatport top 100 syndrome… people wonder why the music played at EVERY party sounds the same. It’s because it IS.” Are you really trying to tell me that ‘back in the day’ there weren’t DJs that played just crowd pleasers? Really? I think you need to find a new scene, because the one you’re in sounds like it sucks.
[ link ]Back in the day’s you’ve got white label or record that were limited pressed !!!! those were the day’s when dj’s were dj’s. you went to a club, heard a song, and months after months you were still looking for that song. and the next time that dj will spin again. your there !!! that was the reason why we went to clubs. hearing some new music !!
[ link ]Yes, things were different back then, but I can assure you DJs are still DJs!
[ link ]“Vinyl is expensive, but I’ll pay however much is necessary to keep it real.”
This is a very purist approach to the whole art of deejaying. I respect a purist approach but sometimes it hinders progress in a field. We spend time trying to keep it real instead of trying to keep it really practical.
[ link ]overall I am on Phil Morse’s side in this debate. in the original article he sumed up the objective advantages of digital DJing. on the other hand your main points are quite normative. perhaps you should change your proposition from “digital DJing is wrong” to “many people get digital DJing wrong”. anyway, here is my bit:
1. I never really got the sound quality argument. especially when we are talking about electronic music which is created, mixed and mastered by using digital technologies (afaik). so it really makes no sense that the sound quality should be any better when you press it on a vinyl compared to the original WAV files. and I really wonder how many people can tell the difference between WAV/FLAC and a 320 kbps MP3. personally I can’t but maybe that’s because my headphones (Sennheiser HD 428) are not good enough. really, if you think about it, shouldn’t the true music enthusiasts be more worried about the wack speakers and headphones majority of people use for listening to music nowadays and, more importantly, cheap soundsystems many clubs use? I think there is a much bigger sound quality loss in the reproduction technology than in the digital format of music (which was created digitally). you get the nice crackling out of vinyl and for me that’s it, soundwise.
2. I see the point and I would gladly own a huge vinyl library if I could afford it but I can’t. also I believe a digital file is immortal unless you are stupid and don’t backup your files.
3. yes, with digital you can play new tunes you only heard once before. but you can also prepare your set properly. from my point of view retaining quaility while having the quantity option is the real skill. I really don’t see any good in being able to play only 10% of the music being made that makes it to the vinyl. even if more than 80% of digitally released music is rubbish, being a digital DJ still allows you to have twice as much good tunes than if you are doing the vinyl only thing.
4. the first bit is right, but it’s not like you can’t make music connections anymore. like-minded people still go to clubs and talk about music.
5. actually I think your points 3-5 are based on the same idea of peoples’ changed attitudes. it’s not a problem of digital technology, it’s a problem of people. so I think I said it all above.
[ link ]Regarding the point on sound quality:
- Vinyl has that certain sound inherent to a needle reading a grooved track, which is really just distortion. Warmth etc, which a lot of people enjoy.
- 16bit (or higher) wave is audio purity, and translates the producer’s intended sound perfectly.
- With modern software/effects you can now filter your sound to get the same effect as vinyl!
- Compressed, lossy MP3′s actually have chunks of frequency missing. Sometimes it’s noticeable, other times you would never know.. but they are now the lowest denominator- the easiest way to acquire different sounds, different tunes- tunes a non-elite dj would have struggled to obtain back in the vinyl era.
Tangibility? Subjective call by Junglist For Life. My wave files are just as tangible as my vinyl. No, I can’t physically pick them up, but that’s not what makes them “tangible” to me.
I agree with the quality versus quantity statement, that will always be important regardless of the medium the tunes are stored on- Reels, Vinyl, Holographic crystal storage, whatever..
I disagree with the statement “The music itself used to have VALUE when vinyl was the dominant medium.” It has as much value as the listener puts on it, period. I do however agree that a huge selection does make it more disposable though..
Welcome to the Age of Information. Buckle up, shit’s just getting started!!
[ link ]I have a love of old vinyl. I collect it, I still have my turntables, it’s fun.
I do not in any way delude myself into thinking it is in any way superior.
No more than an 8-track or cassette is superior.
Besides, it’s always been digital. The master tapes that your “superior” vinyl was pressed from are magnetic data stored DIGITALLY.
So, if I’m such a fan of digital and believe that it has far more merits… why do I still have any vinyl at all?
It’s fun. It reminds me of my past. I did enjoy all the aspects of getting records. There is something cool about owning a record with it’s big artwork surface, weird stuff tipped into the sleeve (posters and stuff… recently got an old Madonna record that still had the old AIDS awareness advert!) They’re nice to own and I like them…
But that doesn’t make them better for DJing from.
[ link ]Where would we be without the advent of technology which has drastically shifted the world we live in today in multiple disciplines….not just music…there are benefits of both but it is the reality of the situation….and a innovation never hurt anyone;)
[ link ]What I personally like about the influx of digital DJ’ing is how it has directly effected the secondary market for vinyl records. I personally have a few thousand records in my collection and a lot of them have actually increased in value since the use of MP3′s have become the preferred format for many traveling DJ’s; even the ones who grew up collecting records. For example, anyone can download D’Angelo’s “Voodoo” album form ITunes for the usual $10-$12 bucks, but the superior sound quality of the vinyl version, along with the tangible artwork and liner notes made it sell for $105 on EBay the other day. I believe I paid $12 for the Voodoo LP at a used record spot in Seattle a few years back. I still own Voodoo on vinyl, but I occasionally like to watch EBay auctions to help me get a better understanding of the estimated “value” of some of my more rare records. It seems like the more MP3′s gain popularity, the higher folks are willing to pay for the genuine article.
[ link ]i love vinyl but i don’t play it out. it’s not true that it sounds better. especially in a club that is large. vinyl is cooler and the packaging is better but for rocking a crowd and consistency digital wins.
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